Runners.........

RhodeRunner36 · Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:57 pm

Runners....give me some feedback b/c I want to know If I can still be a runner and do this diet! I'm on day15...I'm going to stay on Phase 1 one more week b/c this holiday tummy won't go away! I've lost 4-5 lbs. on phase 1, but have those stubborn last 5 to go! Went for a run today..ice cold and windy..but I felt weak! my heart rate sometimes reached 90% when I really wasn't working that hard. I like this eating plan...but is it possible with excercising alot? I run only 20mp week, but I take 2 intense spin classes per week and try to fit in weight training too. I plan to do a 1/2 marathon memorial day weekend. Runners..........any experiences, advice, feedback is appreciated!

tri-guy · Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:23 pm

I don't have a lot of running experience, but I've been a long distance cyclist for several years and I've done triathlons for a year. I'm starting to train for a marathon in June.

I'm starting week 2 of SBD phase 2 today, 3 weeks total. I'm 167 today, starting from 179, and the first 5 pounds was holiday weight but after that, it's all the 10 pounds I've been trying years to lose. 167 is the lowest I've weighed in more than 12 years. So I am thrilled with my progress.

Anyway, my experience is that can do SBD and be an endurance athlete just fine. You just have to have a bit more of things like oatmeal, and know when to bend the SBD rules. And the key thing is to really know your body and how it responds.

If I'm going on a short ride (20 miles) or a short run (4 miles) then I don't bend any SBD rules. But if it's longer than that, then I bend some of them.

And of course, everyone is different - you have to know your body.

I've fiddled around a bit and bonked badly once. Went on a 30 mile ride with no SBD rule bending, and an hour after I got home I was in a slow motion haze. Had to eat a banana and sit for 20 minutes before I felt normal again.

I think for someone who works out regularly, having a bowl of oatmeal in the morning is enough rule bending.

But for someone doing more, bend more rules. This is my advice for someone really training (5+ mile runs, 20+ miles a week, 30+ mile rides):

1) ensure you have glycogen stores before a long run by fueling up with things like black beans the night before, and oatmeal (steel cut, ideally, or regular 5 minute stuff) the morning of a run or ride. Phase 1 doesn't allow oatmeal, but I bend that rule because I need the carbs to make glycogen so I can run or ride. This is key - you have to have glycogen stores or you will burn lean muscle along with glycogen until you keel over.

2) an hour or so before a long run (5+ miles) or long ride (50+ miles) top off with an apple or something like that - a phase 2 approved food. This gives a boost that you'll need. I don't go on anything shorter than a 4 mile run, and I don't bend anything for that, but I felt woozy after a 6 mile run without anything.

3) during the run, keep your heart rate 50 bpm below your max heart rate. If that means a slower pace, then that's OK. When you get past about that, your body is shifting into anaerobic energy production and you'll blow what glycogen you do have much more quickly. Knowing that, if I do plan on running fast, I'll have more carbs. Or, if I happened to have a lot of more carbs that day, I'd "burn them up" by running 10 bpm faster. This is the part about "knowing your body".

And bring a gel along just in case you miscalculated and you're way far out there and you're bonking...

4) I'm sure you've heard of the "glycogen window" etc. where the first 30 minutes after long aerobic exercise (2, 3 hours of exercise) your body is more efficient at converting carbs to stored glycogen. This is important to cyclists; I don't know if it is to runners. But anyway, I think it's OK to have an apple or something like that during that glycogen window, especially if you're feeling weak. But you shouldn't try to "make up for" hard exercise 3 hours later at dinner.

Of course all this depends on your training goals. I'm training to go from my usual 4 mile run to 26.2 miles, so my goal is to increase distance. That means I'm going to forget about speed, and try to push up my lactate threshold, blah blah blah

Sorry for the length of the post. Hope it helps. Good luck to you.

RhodeRunner36 · Sun Feb 08, 2004 11:47 pm

Hi Tri Guy!
Thank you so much for the info! I was thinking I'd have to, and had the right to, bend a little when I work out more. I want to lose fat, not muscle!!!!! Question for you: my spin classes start at 5:50am and I usually run in the early am too. I LOVE oatmeal, but it is not something quick to cook/eat before working out because I usually roll out of bed, change and go! What would be an alternative to oatmeal on early workout days?? Should I grab a slice of ww bread before I go? I love nuts/pb, but I over indulge in them already and they do have a lot of fat. I don't like apples (or most fruit). I know bars are an sbd no no, but I do have them once in a while for convenience. Is there a bar you'd recommend for this purpose? I want to trim down a bit more, but as you said I need to fuel my body properly for workouts. I'm a teacher..so I can't feel dizzy all day!
Any info would be appreciated............ Good luck with your marathon!
Also...after a 1 hour tough spin class, should I have a small amount of carbs during that 30 min. window?? What can you suggest besides an apple since I don't like them?

Snowball In Hell · Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:14 am

I am sooo happy that there is someone talking about this phenomenon. I have been on the diet for two weeks and it is incredibly hard for me to run. As is true. at 65% or below you burn mostly fat so I can run slowly. However, as someone who races I cannot continue in this method. The fact that I am finally eating right is negated by the fact that I can hardly work out!

Starting tommorrow, I am going to implement some of the suggestions listed. I was thinking about oatmeal in the morning and perhaps some fruit around my time for running. I began this diet a day after running a half marathon two weekends ago. Part of my sluggishness is probably due to recovery from that, but I have another race in two weeks and something has got to change!

I would love to hear more about what other athletes have done to modify this diet and the results they have obtained. I run about 20- 30 miles a week, weight train, and teach aerobics. Although, I have lost about seven lbs in the past two weeks, I have also been cranky and barely able to get through ten measly miles. (weekly total) Help!!

RhodeRunner36 · Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:43 am

Hey snowball in hell----
We seem to be on the same playing field (except I haven't done a Half yet..congrats! mine's in May). please keep me posted on this board about what is working/not working for you. I feel the same way..I want to eat healthy and hopefully lose the extra flab, but I too enjoy 5ks, 10ks and I don't want to sacrifice that! My husband has noticed that I'm cranky!...don't want to be a nasty wife either! How much did you lose during phase 1? are you moving on to phase 2? How much do you want to lose? If you work out that much, you probably don't have that much to lose. Keep us posted! Rhoderunner

tri-guy · Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:04 am

I've been thinking about this for a while and trying to apply SBD nutrition knowledge plus my book-learnt nutrition knowledge to the problem. I can't find SQUAT about nutrition for runners / cyclists / etc. that isn't the "high carbs, low fat" mantra. So we're on our own to figure out what works.

So here's what I've put together into my own theory:

According to exercise theory, your body has three main energy sources- "free glucose" in the bloodstream, stored glycogen, and fat. You can burn the free glucose, or you can convert glycogen to glucose and burn that, or you can burn fat. Which, of course, is what we all want.

According to SBD, it takes a while to convert oatmeal or brown rice or something like that to glucose. Bars are somewhere in the middle, and potatoes, bananas or gels convert the fastest. I loaned out my book, so I can't check the exact wording, but that's close. Further, if you eat high-carb foods that burn very quickly - like potatoes - your body doesn't store the excess glucose as glycogen, it turns it into fat instead.

So from an athlete perspective, it's all in the timing when you eat high GI foods. Eat a bowl of Frosted Flakes, say, wait an hour until it's glucose, and go running, and you're fine. The glucose will be burned. Wait two hours, and you missed it - the Frosted Flakes turned into fat by then, and your run won't do anything with it.

So skip the Frosted Flakes, gels, bananas, Pop Tarts, and the like. Forget all that high carb quick burning stuff.

Instead, fuel up the night before with the night before with some heavy grained food - maybe as your just-before-bed snack - and let your body digest it and turn it into glycogen overnight. Then it will be ready to go with your early morning run. If you don't like oatmeal, then perhaps barley soup, say, whole wheat pasta, brown rice, whole grain wheat bread, or maybe black beans. Try looking in the "good fats good carbs guide" (the little book). The key is to find a high fiber high carb food so you can eat it the night before and make glycogen.

I'm thinking for shorter runs or rides, the best plan is to go running or cycling without eating anything else the next morning. Let your body use that stored glycogen, maybe even burn some fat.

For longer rides, something moderately slow burning like a cantaloupe or an apple - not a banana or other fast burning food - eaten just before you go would be good. The first part of your activity would burn stored glycogen, then second part would burn the glucose from the cantaloupe.

As for energy bars, I think if you could find one in the middle-GI category, eating one before the run would substitute for that apple. The Odwalla folks have one I like that I think fits - the Superprotein bar. Most people think it tastes like a mix of sawdust and potting soil, but the taste has grown on me.

And I'm planning on risking low blood sugar as I experiment. I don't want to load up my bloodstream with so much carbs beforehand that they just go straight to my gut as fat. So I'm bringing a gel along just in case.

Let's keep each other posted on what works...

RhodeRunner36 · Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:52 am

Thanks for the info, TriGuy... what you are writing really makes sense. I think I'd rather have the carb the night before the early workout, like you said, for the real reasons you explained....but also because then if cravings hit I'll already be in "bed" mode..If I eat them in the morning, I'm afraid I'll crave them all day. One thing I love about this diet is that I don't always feel like eating. I used to come home from work and be ravenous. Now that I think about it, I'd eat 2bowls of bran flakes and ff sf
soy milk, before dinner b/c I couldn't wait! I never ate foods that were really unhealthy..like donuts or sugary candy. I ate healthy food...just too much of it! My cravings have subsided a great deal and I love that. Now I have to find how to add some carbs so I can work out efficiently, WITHOUT triggering that need to eat at every moment! Keep that helpful advice coming!
I found some high fiber, low carb bread. If I have a slice about a hour before a 5 mile run...do you think that would be beneficial? Unfortunately, I hate fruit. I've had Odwalla bars and I like them (never tried the flavor you mentioned, though) However, I have a hard time finding them consistently.

Snowball In Hell · Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:52 pm

Okay, this is what I have done this week so far. It wasn't doing me much good to diet and be unable to exercise intensely, whereas before I exercised intensely and ate whatever I wanted!! They tend to cancel each other out.

So Sunday was supposed to be day 14 for me. I took a little cheat day, woke up on Monday morning and was able to run 5 miles for the first time since starting the diet. Monday I was supposed to be entering into phase 2, so I saved my carb for dinner where I had a little bit of sushi. This morning I had great energy again, and ran and lifted. I actually "felt " in shape for the first time since starting the diet. This morning I also added a quarter cup of oats into my omelette thingy.

I think phase 2 is going to be a lot better for me. Even after Sunday, I feel thinner already?!!

RhodeRunner36 · Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:40 pm

That is great news. I really think that if you diet in Phase 1 mode and you work out pretty intensely...this diet can do you more harm than good! You end up eating more fat, and burning less b/c you can't work out as hard...and more importantly..workouts weren't enjoyable b/c I felt so weak and lightheaded. Still bummed that after going up and down I really only lost 4lbs in phase 1, but maybe I'll lose more in phase 2...I hope so!

Brenda2bFit · Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:38 pm

Hello all,

I was glad to see a posting on this topic since I have noticed such a dramatic decrease in my usually high energy workouts and runs. I just completed Phase 1 yesterday, but I am going to try to extend it for up to four weeks. I have 10 lbs I'd like to lose, and to date have lost just 3 lbs on phase 1. In addition to my decreased energy and strength, I have also been excessively cold when the room temperature was 70+, and I also had SEVERE headaches for the first week of phase 1.

Good luck to all of us in finding balance with this healthy lifestyle! I look forward to more posts on this topic.

RhodeRunner36 · Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:17 am

Brenda...I, too, thought extending phase 1 would be the answer. But I felt so weak while working out that I was frustrated. All I did, for the past 3 days, was add one slice of high fiber, low carb bread to one meal. It has made the BIGGEST difference. I went running this morning at 6 am and felt like the old me-even better. It didn't cause cravings during the day either. Everyone is different but I really think you should add 1 good carb (at least) if you want to continue working out effectively. IF you don't, it is like trying to drive a car with no gas in it. I just wanted to share what really worked for me. I'm trying not to weigh myself til Sat., but I feel better, lighter, and more energetic (and no headaches!).

tri-guy · Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:35 am

I completely agree with adding one good carb makes all the difference. I don't know about extending phase 1, but we all do vary.

I can have good carbs because I'm in phase 2, and I have no problems working out. I usually have oatmeal in the morning if I'm having a run that night (recently I've been treadmill running after work 4, 5 miles) and I'm fine.

I started at 179 and I was 166 this morning. So I'm 13 pounds down total, 3 and half weeks into SBD. I lost the first 9 pounds in phase 1, but the first 5 pounds were easy "holiday weight" since my usual pre-XMas weight as 174. Regardless, I'm extremely happy with that progress. My goal is to lose the little roll left around my middle. I don't know what weight that will be.

Btw, I weigh myself every day. What the hell, why not?

ljrunner · Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:12 am

I have been a long distance runner for a year now and have completed my first marathon in nov,of 2003.I was not on the lo carb diet then.I was running strong and getting faster,I ran a 9:50 pace for my first marathon.My chip time was 4:17:58 and clock time was 4:19.Now I began the Atkins plan a month ago.I have struggled on a 4 mile run,and have had very sore and tired ,heavy legs.I could never train on my next marathon on eating such low amounts of carbs.Today I decided to try this plan,but add alot more healthy carbs form veggies and fiber foods,and some low glycemic foods.If I cant funtion on this,then I will have to find another way to get my last 15 lbs off.I use to run a high 8 to 9 min mile training,and now I am running a 10 min mile,and struggeling.I hope I can function better uping my carbs alot..

tri-guy · Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:00 am

You look great, and that's a great 1st marathon time! I'm hoping to beat 4 hours myself, but we shall see. I can do 5Ks with 8:20 miles, but I don't think I can come close to that on longer runs, so I'm training long/slow right now.

I've known a few other endurance athletes who've tried Atkins and it just doesn't have enough carbs. I think SBD will work for you. Good carbs with enough fiber are the way to go.

Here's me about a mile before the end of an Olympic distance triathlon in Maui - 9/10 mile swim, 24.8 mile bike, 6.2 mile run. My legs were cramping badly due to loss of sodium - next time, I'll remember the sal tablets! I weighed about 172 in this picture, or maybe less due to dehydration...

Brenda2bFit · Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:02 pm

Hi RhodeRunner, Thanks so much for the tip to add one good carbohydrate source per day. I will give that a try next week and keep you posted. I do miss the feeling that I absolutely have to run just to use up my excess energy!

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